In this episode of On Record PR, Jennifer Simpson Carr goes on record with Daniel Clarke, Senior Business Development and Clients & Markets Manager at Kennedys CMK, to discuss navigating the complexities of business development in a global legal market. Daniel has more than 18 years’ experience leading and implementing multifaceted regional and global business development and client development strategies.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: I’m so delighted you’re here. The last time we were together, we had a long chat in the San Diego Airport ahead of our long journey back to the East Coast from the 2024 Legal Marketing Association Annual Conference.

Daniel Clarke: It was an insightful and delightful chat. We talked about the learnings that we took from the LMA Conference, which was brilliant. It was the second year I’d been there. The topic of going on podcasts came up. It was something that was raised during a question I asked. That sparked our conversation, and here we are.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: I remember saying to you, “You would be great on a podcast, so why don’t you join ours?” And your response was, “I have decided that I’m going to start saying yes to more things,” and so you agreed.

Daniel Clarke: What’s funny is that I asked a question at LMA and one of the panel members actually said that I’ve got a good voice for podcasts, which is really nice. You were the second person to raise the subject of a podcast. I have a goal this year that I’m going to say yes to more things, be more proactive, and put myself out there. It’s the old saying: get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This is a perfect opportunity.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: I’m glad that you said yes to this. We were in the airport ahead of a red eye. We’d seen each other at conferences or events. We’ve had the chance to get to know what each other does in terms of work, but I was fascinated to have a longer chat with you about your career, spanning not only living and working in different countries but the UK and Singapore. Now you’re based in New York. I’m excited to talk to you about that global perspective and how you bring that experience and that vision to Kennedys in your role.

Daniel Clarke: As we talked about that day at the airport, I’ve been lucky in the sense that I have worked in various markets. When I was in London with my first firm, Baker McKenzie, I was on their European business development team, which encompassed me having to travel out to various parts of Europe. That sparked the comfort of being in different markets at different times. Fast forward to a time when I decided to go traveling for a year. Most people would love to be able to do that. I was very lucky to do that.

That was the pathway to me moving to Singapore. I got brought over there by Clyde & Co. I was in that role for three and a half years, but I lived and worked in Singapore for 10 years. The biggest thing that I took from that time as well as my travels and experience around Europe was the various cultural differences and the cultural facets and considerations that you need to think about, culminating in my move here to the US. I landed here in October 2022. If someone said to me, “What’s the one thing that all of that experience and travel has done for you?” I think it’s made me more well-rounded in the takes I give, the opinions that I relay, and the guidance that I give to the partners that I work with today.

With your experience working in diverse cultural settings and different business landscapes across the globe, what are the most significant differences you’ve witnessed between the different legal markets?

Being in the UK and the US, what’s funny is that both of those markets are very mature, but we’re in a strange time where a lot of companies are looking to penetrate those markets because there are various opportunities that might not be taken advantage of today.

When I was in Singapore, the Asian Pacific legal market was still a mystery at times just because of the intercultural differences between the different countries that make up that region. Singapore is extremely different from Hong Kong, and Hong Kong is extremely different from China. Then you have Southeast Asian countries such as Vietnam, Indonesia, and Thailand. I still think that there are a lot of firms that are still finding their feet, even though they may have been in those regions for quite some time. It feels like sometimes they’re still making their way.

If you think of Singapore, for instance, you often have to partner up with a local firm in terms of how you operate there. Then you’ve got countries like Malaysia, where international firms might not necessarily be able to operate in terms of their actual office presence. They work with best-friend or boutique firms.

Then you look at the US legal market where it’s a little freer in terms of international firms that may have to operate here, but the competition is fierce because the US is such a huge market. You’re not just competing with your international competitors and peers, but also the big local firms in each state, let alone in the country as a whole.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: It’s funny you say fierce competition, because that’s exactly how I view not only the business market, but also the talent market in the US right now.

Daniel Clarke: Very much. The LMA conference that we went to was a testament to that. If you look at the fantastic talent that was around that conference. Friends, peers, competitors, all at once. You have people who are doing great work in all different facets of business development and marketing. Firms are looking to cultivate that talent. Getting in the talent is hard enough, but keeping the talent is fierce. There’s that word again.

You have a global perspective and you’re focused on business development with your attorneys and practices in various markets. How do you leverage that global view when you’re partnering with your lawyers to retain clients and go after new business?

The key word that I always try to have front of mind is consideration. A lot of times it’s easy to get siloed when you’re talking to groups of partners in different practice areas. They obviously have the expertise in what they do, but I often try to have them consider not just the client and their business, but also the firm as a whole. When we look at opportunities, we try to come at it from that viewpoint. Consideration is a key word for me.

It’s also about understanding a client in terms of their operations around the world and the different parts of the world. Many of those clients operate in jurisdictions that I’ve worked in, so I like to think that I have an understanding of how people might want to receive certain types of information – how people want to be communicated with, whether it be remotely, in person, phone calls, but also what they want to see in terms of the information that we’re relaying. I’m certainly not saying that my way is the right way, but I can credibly speak to cultural differences from the experiences that I have and try to apply that in the guidance I give each and every day.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: That’s fantastic. Certainly from our perspective, we value we value that nuanced understanding of cultural differences and that perspective on conversations and traditions. We’re lucky enough to have some international affiliates that we brought on to the team last year because we realized that it could be a barrier to entry for those of us who don’t have that boots-on-the-ground experience and have lived and worked in those different markets. I’m in awe of that global perspective that you bring to the work that you’re doing.

In your role leading global client teams, what are some of the best practices you employ to ensure effectiveness and alignment of these strategies across different regions throughout the world?

First of all, creating an environment of accountability. You want people to not just understand their responsibilities, but feel their responsibilities. People take great pride in their work and if they can see and feel how their contribution relates to the bigger picture, I think that’s effective.

An oldie but a goodie is celebrating success. It’s important that people get to see the fruits of their labor. You want to cultivate that team ethic. I think celebrating success is a huge part of that.

Again, an oldie but a goodie, for want of a better phrase, is trust. You have to trust that the advice that you’re giving is credible, but also the advice that you’re receiving, particularly if you’re receiving it from people in a certain jurisdiction where you might want to do an action and they’re telling you that it’s not going to work. It can be easy to say, “They’re probably just being difficult. We need to get this over the line.”

You need to trust that the person who is delivering that advice, and is a member of your team, does so with the greater good in mind. Trust is an obvious one in in many facets of work in many areas of development, but certainly when you’re working across jurisdictions or a global team, it’s hugely important.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: I think you touched on something really important, which is that perhaps when you don’t necessarily completely understand another culture, it is easy to be in the moment and think they’re being difficult. You’ve completely hit the nail on the head that if you’re going to go into a business relationship, that trust is invaluable because you’ve engaged for a reason, and their understanding of what will work and what will not can make or break the success of an engagement.

Daniel Clarke: Absolutely. I find that when you do get pushback in terms of being told that something can’t happen, it’s an opportunity. It’s a learning opportunity for the parties involved, and it’s a learning opportunity for the firm to do better in an area, whether it be to provide a value-added service, to interpret something in another language, or to do something on a different timeline. It might add more time to your task. It might make things more difficult, of course, particularly if you’re on a deadline and you’re getting that pressure from various parties that we can all relate to in a law firm, but ultimately, if your mindset is that this is an opportunity to do better for the client, then everybody wins.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: One of my favorite sayings is, “If it doesn’t challenge you, it doesn’t change you.” If you view that from the lens of opportunity, you can be challenged almost on a weekly or daily basis, and you can continue to grow from that.

Daniel Clarke: I’m sure some of your audience members might be rolling their eyes a little bit. It’s a touch cheesy, but it’s true. There are some sayings that stand the test of time because they are true. Being challenged is a great thing.

If you’re working with a colleague or a party in a different part of the world than yourself and you’re getting some pushback, implement some trust and understanding. Before you know it, you might be having a whole different conversation about a value-added service or doing something better all around.

What trends are you seeing in the global legal market?

It’s an exciting time for a lot of industries. In terms of trends, I think the biggest and most obvious one is artificial intelligence. Everybody’s talking about it in every capacity. They’re talking about the possibilities. They’re talking about what it can do now and what can be done in the future.

For me, it’s about an opportunity. A lot of people are fearful. As human beings, we tend to fear what we might not understand and I think it’s only right to consider the negative effects it could have because you want some balance. Bringing it to the role that I have and working within legal business development as a whole, I think it’s a fantastic opportunity if only to look at how AI tools can help make things more efficient.

They can create more time for us in business development, as well as for lawyers, to do our jobs more efficiently because time is such a valuable asset. If you have something that can create time for yourself, it’s like gold dust.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: You’ve touched on something really important, which is balance, because we are in the most risk-averse industry one could possibly be employed in, in my opinion. Balance is critical.

Are you seeing any trends with law firms that you partner with globally? What are you seeing with legal departments and clients?

I think in terms of law firms, generally AI is becoming part of day-to-day language. Even if you look at the roles that law firms are recruiting for, whether it be on the legal side or the BD side, AI is starting to filter into that. Law firms are wanting talented people to come in to help them understand and use the technology as best as they can.

I’ve even seen roles advertised in terms of legal BD managers that touch on practice groups that might be cybersecurity and AI. It’s definitely something that’s going to become of greater importance in the legal landscape generally. Overall, you’re going to start seeing firms putting together products that encompass AI for clients and how they operate within their business and hopefully bring more efficiencies.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: We’re only going to see more evolution in this space, and I’ve been fascinated at different conferences throughout this year to learn about proprietary AI that firms have developed and different opportunities they are taking to partner with corporate clients and test run things together. I’m excited to see where that goes.

Daniel Clarke: It’s interesting that you brought up partnerships. That’s something I hadn’t touched on, which is that law firms, much like big accountancy firms or consultancy firms, are going to be partnering in the AI space because people are just looking to build up understanding of the opportunities.

What are you most looking forward to in the next twelve months in your role?

I’ve only been in the US for 18 months. I definitely would like to get more entrenched in the legal market. I’m still learning. Whilst I have a lot of experience, there’s a lot to learn whenever you move to a new country and operate in a new legal market. That’s an exciting thing for me personally.

In terms of my client-facing role, I’m working on getting a sense of what’s of importance to our clients. What’s going to be exciting them in the next twelve months, how can I help, and how can I help the firm partner up with our clients? Because yes, we are a law firm, yes, we have expert legal advisors, but ultimately we want to be business advisors as well.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: I’m imagining that we have legal marketing professionals listening to this podcast episode and they’re thinking, “Wow, he’s had some amazing opportunities to work in different markets around the world.” What advice would you give to someone listening who may be considering a big move in the legal space that might be scary or challenging or who is teetering on a big career decision? It could be a big move like changing to a new law firm that’s very different than where they currently work.

What advice would you give those professionals listening to this episode about a challenge you’ve come up against or a big decision you’ve made in your career and how they can approach this decision for themselves?

I would say two things. One is if you’re thinking about it, you’re ready. This is not something that has just popped into your head. Whether you’ve spoken to people or heard cool stories, or you’ve visited a country and loved it. If you’re thinking about it, it’s something that you want, and then you know you’re on the cusp.

The second thing I would say is: certainly in the legal BD space, our network and the world at large is small. Speak to your colleagues and peers and have a look at what your firm does. You could do it in a multitude of ways. It’s not that you have to “up sticks,” as we say in the UK, and move completely. You might be able to do a short-term commitment. You might be able to do a work transfer. International firms generally have various guides that they create for people in terms of professional development.

Speak to your HR, speak to your professional development advisors, and understand the options that are open to you. If you are someone who’s looking to make a big move out of the country and sell your apartment and your car, speak to your firm. They might have an office in the country that you want to go to. What roles are open in that office that you might be able to fill?

If there aren’t any, there are recruiters out there who can provide great advice as well. I’m certainly not looking to facilitate anybody getting out of their job, so disclaimer right there. But that being said, in the legal BD space there are a multitude of opportunities. It all starts with you putting your hand up. If you don’t put your hand up and you try to maneuver this on your own, it’s a lot to take in, and it can feel quite overwhelming at times. If you put your hand up, you’ll be amazed at the amount of support you have on hand.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: That’s great advice, and you touched on something that I think is important in our industry, which is that you don’t always have to move firms to make a move in your career. I sat in on a great presentation from a fantastic woman in our industry who has been at her firm for nearly two decades. Instead of leaving to try a new opportunity, she would prepare a proposal for the firm and say, “There is a need at our firm and I think I can fill that.” That’s a great recommendation for anyone, particularly earlier in your career, that you don’t always have to leave the firm to find new ways to stretch your career or grow and develop.

Daniel Clarke: I can use myself as an example with this. I was in Singapore for 10 years. The last three and a bit years in Singapore, I was at Kennedys. After COVID, I went to London to see family, which was emotional, as you can imagine. During my time in London, I went into the London office, and I got talking to our global director about how I was feeling and how work was going. She was the one who mentioned to me that we had opportunities in the US. It just went from there.

I wasn’t looking to leave Singapore. I love Singapore even to this day. It was a fantastic place to be, but I had been there for 10 years. I didn’t have to leave Kennedys. We got talking, and there was a need. Obviously, it helps if there’s a need for somebody like myself to fill, and here I am. The conversation took on speed at its own convenience.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: I’m glad you made that move, because it’s meant that we’ve had the chance to connect on some occasions in New York. It’s been such a pleasure getting to know you and more about your career. I’m so grateful that you said yes to joining me today for this recording. It feels like just yesterday we were in the San Diego Airport, but here we are today. Thank you for the great conversation.

Daniel Clarke: Thank you so much, and huge thanks for helping me get comfortable with being uncomfortable.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: Absolutely.

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Daniel Clarke

Learn more about Kennedys CMK

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielclarke30/

Instagram: @clarkey_d