In the latest episode of the Mintz on Air: Practical Policies podcast, Member Jen Rubin hosts a conversation on successful veteran transitions to the private sector. This episode is part of a series of conversations designed to help employers navigate workplace changes and understand general legal considerations.
Jen is joined by Associate Tara Dunn Jackson, to discuss:
- Understanding military compensation and its impact on civilian expectations
- The transition mindset: challenges veterans face entering the workforce
- Salary negotiation tips and employer support strategies
- Building trust with veterans through values and leadership
Listen for insights on how employers can better support veterans during career transitions while fostering a culture of trust and leadership.
From Serving Our Country to Serving an Employer: Successful Veteran Transitions to the Private Sector
Jen Rubin (JR): Welcome to Mintz on Air: The Practical Policies Podcast. Today's topic, From Serving Our Country to Serving an Employer: Successful Veteran Transitions to the Private Sector. I'm Jen Rubin, a Member of the Mintz Employment Group with the San Diego-based Bicoastal Employment Practice representing management, executives, and corporate boards. Thank you for joining our Mintz on Air podcast, and I hope you've had the opportunity to tune in to our programs previously. If you have, you know that my guest and I have been discussing a variety of employment-related topics and developments. If you have not tuned in to our previous podcasts and would like to access our content, please visit us at the Insights page Mintz.com.
Today I'm joined by my Boston-based colleague Tara Dunn Jackson, who is also an employment lawyer. Tara litigates employment disputes, conducts internal investigations for employers, and counsels clients on a broad spectrum of employment issues. But importantly for this podcast, Tara is a graduate of the US Air Force Academy and prior to her legal career, she served on active duty in the US Air Force Space Command, now known as Space Force, where she commanded small teams responsible for carrying out missile warnings and space tracking missions.
In her last assignment on active duty, she was a flight commander responsible for over 30 instructors and 200 space system trainees throughout the year. She's also very proud of her jump wings, which she earned by completing five solo freefall jumps out of an airplane. Wow! Hello, Tara, and thanks for joining Mintz on Air.
Tara Dunn Jackson (TDJ): Thanks for having me. Pleasure to be here.
Understanding Military Compensation and Its Impact on Civilian Expectations
JR: I'm really pleased to be bringing this topic to the podcast because those of you who know me know about my passion for serving veterans. Now, in addition to being a member of the board of the USS Midway Museum, I have for the past ten years volunteered my time as a faculty member, advisor, and coach for the Honor Foundation, a nonprofit organization devoted entirely to helping armed services special operators, think Navy SEALs or Space Force members, make successful transitions to the private sector.
From that experience, I've learned about a vast gap between the experience of being employed in the US military and being employed in the private sector. The purpose of today's podcast is to discuss some of those challenges in the hope that private sector employers and people who act on their behalf will put some practical suggestions into practice when recruiting, promoting, and frankly, ensuring the success of our veterans in the workplace.
So, Tara, this is where your experience is really on point. I’d like to start with the basics of employment, which is how you get paid and the components of pay. Can you give us some background regarding how the US military compensates service members?
TDJ: Yes. Service members’ compensation is laid out into four categories. The first category is enlisted versus commissioned officer. They have different pay scales based on whether they're a commissioned officer or enlisted. Also, the enlisted troops, airmen, or Space Force members get bonuses, basically, incentives to sign on for two more years or three more years, etc., which is not necessarily an option for commissioned officers.
They also look at time in service for both enlisted and commissioned officers. There's a pay chart where you can see, based on how many years an officer of a particular rank or enlisted person of a particular rank will get incremental increases as their time in service goes up. Also, based on their career field, they may have certain payments or bonus payments based on shortage in that career field.
For example, if there's a shortage of pilots, they may have incentive pay or additional bonus pay within that career field. Also, combat pay or hazard pay are considerations as well. Certain career fields are very hazardous and very dangerous, and so they receive additional pay based on those aspects. So, those are the main categories that a lot of troops consider. But there is definitely no wiggle room outside of what Congress puts forth in the pay scales every year.
JR: You get the grid, you get paid according to the grid. You know where you fall in the grid and that's what goes into your bank account. Correct?
TDJ: Absolutely.
JR: And the same thing for benefits. The benefits are determined by the military, is that right?
TDJ: Yes. The benefits are determined by the military. It’s something that you really don't even think about when you're on active duty, you know that somebody is going to take care of your health care, you do your job, and you keep moving forward.
The Transition Mindset: Challenges Veterans Face Entering the Workforce
JR: I've never served like you, although obviously some of the activities I've engaged in the past couple of years, I've learned a lot about how military members think about pay, compensation, and negotiation, and I think it's fair to say that they don't think about negotiation because it's a grid. It’s known there's no secrets to it. It seems to me that this is what you sign up for and this is what you receive.
Tara, I'm sure you would agree, given your experience as an employment lawyer. There's no publicly published grid out there that tells people in the private sector how much they will or should be paid, aside from minimum wage.
It’s fair to say that many of the states that are passing salary transparency laws are helping to peel back the salary curtain for individuals in those states and provide at least some visibility into what compensation is being offered for open positions. Before we turn to the discussion about how to use that information, can you give us some insight into how a veteran might be thinking when they start working in the private sector?
And to that end, what might employers consider in making the transition a bit easier for veterans when it comes to understanding how they're going to function as an employee in the private sector?
TDJ: To your first question about what you're thinking, once you make that jump into the private sector, I mean, obviously veterans are not a monolith. I'm speaking from my own experience and some of my very close friends who have made the jump, but you are just happy to have a job. I say that because many of the top performers in military service branches are discouraged from leaving active duty.
There's this perception that it may be very difficult for you to make it on the outside, even though you've excelled here on active duty. I know that with my first job, it's the feeling of “I really don't care what you guys are paying me, I'm just happy that I made it, as I started my journey outside of active duty.
JR: What about the negotiation in that context?
TDJ: When you're going in with that mindset, I think it's safe to say you might be underselling yourself or undervaluing what you bring to the table, you're far less likely to negotiate when you're just happy to have the job. Secondly, you may not know how to, and you probably have not done your research to consider how to negotiate effectively, which I know we'll cover a little bit later.
But as to your question about what employers can do to ease that transition, I would say that what I've already mentioned is that veterans are not a monolith. Spending time to actually get to know the veteran that you're dealing with is important. The percentage of women veterans is much smaller than that of male veterans. So the approach that you may take for male veterans, in terms of maybe affinity groups, may not be as effective for women veterans. Maybe they don't want to be in a room full of other male veterans, and that's why they left the service, right?
Connecting veterans with coaches is very, very crucial. We're coming from a completely different environment, with different forms of communication. While I think our hard work translates in the private sector, there are certain customs and norms that are completely foreign to all of us. Having somebody, a mentor, or an established coach to walk you through those things can be helpful.
Another thing about veterans is that we are very reluctant to ask for help. We don't want help. We want to figure it out on our own. We want to take what you've given us and make the best out of it. And we take pride in that. Often in the private sector, that's not the most efficient way to do things.
Realizing that veterans will be very reluctant to ask for help and even more reluctant to identify disabilities that they have because of the stigma related to disabilities, both in the military and even in the private sector.
Salary Negotiation Tips and Employer Support Strategies
JR: Turning to private sector pay negotiations, let's just focus on that for a moment. It's fair to say you'd agree there's no class in college or high school or whatever it may be on private sector pay negotiations. And that's for people in the private sector. But there's certainly no class for military personnel. Correct?
TDJ: Right.
JR: Compensation negotiations, I think many people would agree, are one of the most awkward things that you can do. You're negotiating with somebody who's going to be your employer. You don't want to be asking for things and making yourself look like you're asking for too much. But by the same token, you don't want to leave money on the table or indicate to somebody that you don't know what you’re doing and therefore not asking for help and not asking for something you're entitled to.
It's a very difficult situation for everybody especially for veterans because of this notion that you’re paid on a grid, based on your rank. This is what it is. There's no discussing that. What are a few tips we can provide for veterans related to negotiating salary and other terms of employment in the private sector?
Can you give us some ideas about things that employers might do to support those individuals, to help teach them and train them on asking for help with these things?
TDJ: I would say in terms of negotiating salary and bonuses, 100% do your research and talk to somebody in the industry. It should be your number one goal to get as much information as possible, because not only does it give you the lay of the land, but it also helps you measure what you're bringing to the table and the transferable skills that you have.
You should complete that process before you actually enter the negotiation stage. Also, ensure that everything is laid out in writing in an offer letter. Especially in the military, the day-to-day negotiating that you do with your colleagues is much different. You want everything to be laid out and understood, including all of the terms and different things that you can leverage for negotiations, like equity or ownership interest in a business, stock options, or even negotiating your start date or how often you come into the office.
These are all things that you can leverage that military members are just not used to being able to have much control over at all. I have a very close friend who made the jump to the private sector before I did, who actually went to a large law firm and didn't quite know how to leverage her experience as a JAG.
Her former experience as a JAG meant she came in at a lower class year, but after she had a trial with some of the partners at her firm, she renegotiated her class year because they were impressed with her skills. She's like, I tried to tell them. That's a great example of someone who really didn't understand the process but then once she got in there, renegotiated her circumstances.
JR: That’s a great point in terms of showing what you can do. People should understand that you may negotiate an offer and I want to come back to that, but I just want to make this point: there's nothing that stops you as an employee after you start working from asking to have a conversation with your manager to discuss a compensation review.
There's no rule that says you cannot do that. Of course, you need to be very prepared to have that conversation and have that information at your fingertips. The friend you mentioned who's a JAG, by the way, Judge Advocate General is the acronym.
A JAG is basically a lawyer in the military who handles criminal or civil matters, both for or against military service members. That person is an active, practicing lawyer who's obviously learning important trial skills. So that JAG has developed some real trial skills that are going to benefit that person's employer.
And by being able to show those things, I'm really happy to hear that anecdote about how she went in and said, “Hey, you know, I need to up my class year,” which comes with additional compensation based upon what I've shown I can do. That's always the best way to address those issues and show your stuff, so to speak. Actions sometimes speak louder than words. Certainly, results do.
I want to go back to this concept of negotiating. This is one of the things that I have found in my work with veterans over the past ten years. This probably happens in the private sector as well, but it's one of those points that I think is important.
You indicated, Tara, and I completely agree, that veterans should wait until they have the material terms of employment and not negotiate piecemeal. Right. You want to have everything in a written offer letter, which almost always comes by email these days. You're not going to get something in the mail. Very little comes in the mail these days. But the point is that you have everything in front of you and can understand what you need to leverage under the circumstances.
I want to give this free tip of the day to everybody: Do not negotiate over email. What you want to do is have that negotiation over the phone or by Zoom, which I recognize could be awkward, or in person, probably even more awkward. But the point being that email is a very poor device for being able to tell somebody how excited you are about the position, for having back and forth, for developing information in response to questions. We all have received emails where we'd misread them, right? Because they may not make sense. In any event, I just wanted to point that out because that's something that I think is important for everybody.
To understand successful negotiation, you need to have the back and forth. That's a great segue into something else that I think is important and a topic that's always fascinated me as an employment lawyer and that's the topic of trust in the employment relationship.
Building Trust with Veterans Through Values and Leadership
Tara, I'd like to know if you think that there's a difference in building trust with a veteran and what advice you can provide to human resources professionals and those who manage veterans when it comes to building trust, which I am sure almost certainly leads to superior performance.
TDJ: I absolutely think that there is a difference in building trust with veterans. You have to put their experience into perspective. These are folks who have spent maybe a year or two years or a good portion of their lives living under a values-driven organization. For the Air Force, it's integrity first, service before self, and excellence in all we do.
Although it may sound a little bit corny, these aren't corny slogans. These are principles that shape how you lead, how you follow, how you carry out your job, and your mission. When trying to build trust with a veteran, you have to understand that they're coming in expecting, to some extent, that the organization puts some action behind its words, puts some action behind the things that it has on the website. This can be shown through mentorship, but also by sticking to what they say their values are.
That is a good way to build trust with veterans within the greater organization. Also, look at how the organization exemplifies the values that it says it holds. Because on a greater scale, these are veterans who are willing to put their lives on the line to protect the freedoms that our Constitution guarantees. So they at least expect their employers to do what they say they're going to do.
JR: It sounds to me like consistency is important. And how you're treating not just veterans but all employees, I think that that's something that's very beneficial. And leadership. What you're focused on here is whether the leaders living the values that they're espousing on behalf of the organization. You're going to find more followers when those followers really believe that you are carrying out those missions.
Again, I think that's something that the private sector can really learn from the military, especially by bringing in veterans who are brought up with these concepts. There's a whole untapped market of leadership, consistency, and trust among veterans. Additionally, veterans put their lives on the line to protect our freedoms, which goes without saying but can be overlooked. When hiring veterans, employers not harnessing everything that they can from this very large and important population that is now serving the private sector.
Thank you, Tara, I really appreciate this conversation. Once again, I'm Jen Rubin, and I appreciate those of you who've tuned in to our Practical Policies podcast. I invite you to visit us at Mintz.com for more content and commentary. Thank you.
